Recenzie Red Winter

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danielM
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Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 51734Post danielM
25 Mar 2014, 16:21

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Red Winter este un joc de razboi produs de GMT Games, a carui actiune se petrece in perioada 8-12 decembrie a anului 1939. Fortele combatante sunt sovieticii, respectiv finlandezii, reprezentate la nivel de companii,in majoritatea cazurilor, si plutoane. Batalia de la Tolvajarvi a reprezentat o importanta victorie a finlandezilor in razboiul pornit de rusi, care si-au imaginat ca vor fi primiti cu flori si urale; primirea finlandezilor a fost o rezistenta indarjita si o infrangere usturatoare pentru armata neexperimentata a rusilor.


1. Componente :sy: :sy: :sy: :sy: :sh:
Prezentate aici . Pentru a proteja harta (care este din hartie), am achizitionat o placa de plexiglas de la Obi; lucru pe care il recomand oricui care are jocuri cu astfel de harti.

2. Regulament & Playbook :sy: :sy: :sy: :sy: :sy:
Fara discutie, un regulament foarte bine scris si structurat (cu toate ca la inceput am avut destule neclaritati - lucru insa firesc ,zic eu, pentru orice wargame - ,dar care s-au limpezit dupa ce am inceput sa joc si sa mai trec prin regulament) , cu designer notes care argumenteaza de ce o anumita regula este asa sau ce vrea sa reprezinte ,dpdv istoric, acea regula. Playbook-ul este piesa de rezistenta, 54 de pagini in care gasesti diferite scenarii, reguli optionale (care adauga un plus de realism si tema), o prezentare foarte buna si interesanta a acelui conflict(cu numeroase fotografii si date), precum si strategii de urmat pentru ambele tabere.

3. Desfasurarea jocului :sy: :sy: :sy: :sy: :sh: Jocul iti ofera posibilitatea de a juca intreaga campanie (din dimineata de 8 pana in 12 decembrie) sau de a juca anumite zile, evenimente. Printre obiective si conditii de victorie se numara eliminarea de unitati inamice, controlul anumitor poduri cheie, asezari sau insule. O tura reprezinta 90 de minute, momentele zilei aduc simtitoare modificari LOS-ului (line of sight) si influenteaza atacurile la distanta. Cele mai importante si rapide modalitati de a muta trupele sunt drumurile principale, secundare si cararile, oricare alt teren este foarte anevoios si costisitor . Unitatile din joc sunt in majoritate unitati de infanterie, echipate sau nu cu MGs, dar se regasesc si mortiere, infantry guns, trei batalioane de biciclisti (la finlandezi), tunuri antitanc, armored units (numai sovieticii) si off-map artillery.

Tura unui jucator incepe cu resetarea mortierelor, infantry guns si a artileriei (First player reset phase), avand posibilitatea de a le folosi din nou, in aceeasi tura, sau pe tura oponentului, ca suport defensiv. Fiecare unitate de sub comanda unui jucator, poate sa faca una dintre urmatoarele actiuni (First Player Action Phase):
- sa mute si/sau sa execute un asalt ( asalturile sunt diferite fata de lupta propriu-zisa, pentru ca in acest caz nu poate fi oferit suport de la alte unitati )
- attempt recovery, actiune care ii permite unei unitati sa incerce sa revina la full strength ( si aici gasim reguli care adauga tematica si savoare jocului: daca unitatea este la o distanta mai mare de 4 hexes fata de inamic, primeste +1 la tabelul de recovery, iar in timpul noptii, +2 - noaptea reprezinta o perioada de 15 ore, fata de o ora si jumatate cat are oricare alt game turn - )
- dig in ; prin aceasta actiune, o unitate poate incepe sa isi intareasca pozitiile, urmand ca in tura viitoare sa poata deveni dug-in si sa beneficieze de un plus in aparare

Dupa aceasta, urmeaza Combat Phase-ul, faza in care poti ataca unitati inamice adiacente; dupa declararea atacului, atacatorul declara de la care unitati va primi suport, dupa care aparatorul va face acelasi lucru. Ca in orice wargame,se consulta Combat Results Table (CRT) si se aplica situatiei. Unitatile de infanterie care se afla in acelasi hex sunt vulnerabile atacurilor de la distanta, astfel ca stacking-ul de unitati trebuie tratat cu grija. Dupa drumuri, portiunile vaste de lacuri inghetate sunt cel mai rapid mijloc de miscare, atata timp cat esti dispus sa te expui, pentru ca unitatile aflate pe lac au mai multe slabiciuni : atunci cand ataca de pe lac, ataca cu combat strength-ul injumatatit; iar daca sunt tinta atacului, atacatorul va beneficia de 3 Right/Left shifts ,un lucru devastator (ba mai mult, in cazul rusilor aflati pe lac, finlandezii primesc 4 shifts -prin aceasta se simuleaza faptul ca rusii aveau uniformele de culoare maro, fiind tinte sigure in albul din jur ).
Luptele nu vor aduce rezultate imediate, pentru fiecare bucata de pamant cele doua tabere se vor macina reciproc, avansand treptat si recastigand zone de control.

O alta faza interesanta a acestui joc este tura in care este noapte (Night Turn). In aceasta faza, capacitatea de mutare a unitatilor se dubleaza (reprezinta 15 ore faza noptii), sovieticii pot aprinde ruguri , iar finlandezii pot efectua un raid de noapte. Noaptea si gerul pe care il aduce aceasta sunt un adevarat cosmar pentru sovietici, acestia nefiind echipati corespunzator. Astfel, sunt pusi in situatia de a alege: ori ridica ruguri si sunt la adapost de ger (devenind insa tinte usoare) , ori continua sa lupte, sa se deplaseze. La finalul fiecarei nopti, toate unitatile sovietice care nu au aprins focuri vor consulta tabelul Sub-Zero, care nu de putine ori va face mai multe victime decat inamicul. De cealalta parte, numai finlandezii care au luptat sau au participat la asalturi si cei care au participat la un raid de noapte vor fi nevoiti sa consulte acel tabel (primind oricum +1 datorita echipamentului corespunzator). Numai un raid poate fi executat pe faza de noapte si numai de catre un grup de unitati aflate la full strength. Aceste raiduri se pot termina destul de urat pentru rusi, mai ales pentru cei care si-au ridicat ruguri. De asemenea, atacurile de la distanta pe timp de noapte au putine sanse de reusita.
Concluzii

Red Winter a reusit sa ma cucereasca prin eleganta cu care este construit, tema puternic resimtita, timpul relativ scurt de joc (1 h, 2 :30 h/ scenariu) si usurinta cu care se joaca. In plus, regulile optionale (cum ar fi: friendly fire, capturarea mitralierelor sovietice, starea de sanatate a lt.col. Pajari-comandantul finlandezilor- sau posibilitatea unor unitati de a se rataci prin padurile din zona, precum si alte asemenea reguli) aduc un plus de realism si atmosfera jocului. Cu toate acestea, nu cred ca este jocul care sa prinda la cineva care nu este pasionat de jocuri de razboi.

Sursa foto: BGG si Web

Rautz

Re: Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 51735Post Rautz
25 Mar 2014, 16:28

Sper ca tipul asta e reprezentat de un counter separat, doar al lui.

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danielM
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Re: Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 51736Post danielM
25 Mar 2014, 16:34

Rautz wrote:Sper ca tipul asta e reprezentat de un counter separat, doar al lui.
505.. din pacate nu are counter special (nu exista lunetisti in joc) ; oricum nu cred ca a participat la batalia de la Tolvajarvi; din ce am mai citit, o sa mai urmeze ori o expansiune ori alt joc despre acest razboi si poate atunci sa-l introduca, ar merita

Rautz

Re: Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 51737Post Rautz
25 Mar 2014, 16:38

Desi vorbim despre ucis oameni, ce a facut omul asta e ceva incredibil.

705 confirmed kills (505 with rifle, 200 with submachine gun)Was a Finnish soldier who, using an iron sighted bolt action rifle, amassed the highest recorded confirmed kills as a sniper in any war…ever!!
During the conflict Häyhä endured freezing temperatures up to -40 degrees Celsius. In less than 100 days he was credited with 505 confirmed kills, 542 if including unconfirmed kills, however the unofficial frontline figures from the battlefield places the number of sniper kills at over 800.

How Häyhä did all this was amazing. He was basically on his own all day, in the snow, shooting Russians, for 3 months straight. Of course when the Russians caught wind that a shit load of soldiers were being killed, they thought ‘well this is war, there’s bound to be casualties’. But when the generals were told that it was one man with a rifle they decided to take a bit of action. first they sent in a counter-sniper. When his body was returned they decided to send in a team of counter-snipers. When they didn’t come back at all they sent in a whole goddamn battalion. They took casualties and couldn’t find him. Eventually they ordered an artillery strike, but to no avail. You see Häyhä was clever, and this was his neck of the woods. He dressed completely in white camouflage. He used a smaller rifle to suit his smaller frame (being 5ft3) increasing his accuracy. he used an iron sight to present the smallest possible target (a scoped sight would require the sniper to raise his head for sighting). He compacted the snow in front of the barrel, so as not to disturb it when he shot thus revealing his position. He also kept snow in his mouth so his breath did not condense and reveal where his was.

criss

Re: Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 51742Post criss
25 Mar 2014, 18:29

Great review! :tu:
Cred ca ar trebui sa-l joci inainte de CC:E, sa pastrezi o ordine crescatoare a complexitatii.

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Re: Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 51744Post danielM
25 Mar 2014, 18:44

criss wrote:Great review! :tu:
Cred ca ar trebui sa-l joci inainte de CC:E, sa pastrezi o ordine crescatoare a complexitatii.
Mersi fain :) Am 3 partide in 2 si una solo la activ de RW si mai urmeaza o partida saptamana asta (cum am mai zis, vreau sa joc un wargame de cat mai multe ori inainte de a trece la altul) . CC:E e pe lista de asteptare

criss

Re: Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 51747Post criss
25 Mar 2014, 21:06

danielM wrote:(cum am mai zis, vreau sa joc un wargame de cat mai multe ori inainte de a trece la altul)
Eu regula asta o aplic la toate jocurile, indiferent daca sunt de tip euro, ameritrash sau wargames. Dupa ce invat regulamentul, joc cel putin 10 partide (uneori multe zeci) inainte sa trec la alt joc (de exemplu, de citeva luni am jucat incontinuu Imperial). Contrar "modei actuale" de a juca cit mai multe titluri de putine ori. Joc putine titluri (alese cu grija) dar ajung sa le aprofundez, sa le descopar secretele.

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danielM
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Re: Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 51765Post danielM
26 Mar 2014, 10:30

Aceasta ar trebui sa fie abordarea fireasca a unui joc (in special dintre cele complexe) ; o partida sa spunem ca e de ajuns pentru a explora un joc in cazul celor simple, dar un joc complex nu doar ca nu iti va dezvalui ce poate de la o prima partida, mai e foarte posibil si sa mearga greoi, iar asta te poate face sa tragi o conluzie gresita despre el.

Rautz

Re: Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 51769Post Rautz
26 Mar 2014, 10:55

Teoretic si mie mi-ar placea aceasta abordare, dar la wargames se potriveste mai bine, pentru ca in general ai acelasi partener.
La boardgames de 3-5 jucatori joci rar in aceeasi formula, si fiecare grup vrea sa joace alte jocuri. Si nici nu poti sa progresezi la fel de bine cand nivelul de cunoastere al jocului e disproportionat intre jucatori.

Deci nu cred ca e neaparat o 'moda' ci pur si simplu o urmare a faptului ca joci cu grupuri diferite de oameni. Bineinteles sunt si oameni care au un grup de 3-5 oameni care joaca mereu in aceeasi formula.

Ioan76

Re: Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 51798Post Ioan76
27 Mar 2014, 09:59

criss wrote:
danielM wrote:(cum am mai zis, vreau sa joc un wargame de cat mai multe ori inainte de a trece la altul)
Eu regula asta o aplic la toate jocurile, indiferent daca sunt de tip euro, ameritrash sau wargames. Dupa ce invat regulamentul, joc cel putin 10 partide (uneori multe zeci) inainte sa trec la alt joc (de exemplu, de citeva luni am jucat incontinuu Imperial). Contrar "modei actuale" de a juca cit mai multe titluri de putine ori. Joc putine titluri (alese cu grija) dar ajung sa le aprofundez, sa le descopar secretele.
Si eu cam la fel - desi de regula doar la jocurile care mi-au placut/m-au prins cu ceva dupa prima experienta. :)

Rautz

Re: Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 53455Post Rautz
30 May 2014, 17:42

Citesc cu placere articole despre istorie, si am gasit asta acum, poate intereseaza pe cineva:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/c ... ?context=3

Finland

Military factors

The Finnish army, while lacking in equipment, was by ww2 standards a very well-trained force. Finnish conscripts served 365 days of conscription with a for the time modern training regime. The Finnish tactics revolved around late ww1 German tactics as learned by the Finnish officers and soldiers in the German Jäger units. Defence in depth, flexible counter-attacks, foreposts at the front and most men kept safe further back during enemy barrages and tactical flexibility on the attack, with infiltration and tactical flanking were German tactics developed to deal with the ww1 battlefield. As it turned out, these were superb tactics for the close-range forest fighting and large stretches of woodlands lacking fronts completely.

The Finns realised the potential of the mortar, especially in rough terrain (as much of the fighting would be in) early, and while lack of funds prevented them from having as many as they would have wanted, they had attached them to the infantry battalions with their own forward observers (sometimes with radios, but most often telephone lines) which gave the Finnish infantry battalion some direct punch, even if the mortars did not fire within line of sight.

The Finns raised their infantry from counties and companies from muncipalities. This meant that most men knew each other from before the war, and kept unit cohesion high. There's a tendency in battle to forget politics and nationalism and fight only for your comrades. Having men you have known for a long time next to you in the trench helps immensly. High casualties could and did cause some villages to have their male population nearly wiped out by this though.

Inter-war Finnish training had, like in most Nordic countries, put some emphasis on rifle accuracy. What many contenintal nations considered "harrasing fire" with rifles, the Nordic nations trained to be sharpshooting. The Finns were especially good at this. Combined with a long and strong hunting tradition, this created a large pool of very good shots, culminating in Simo Häya who in 90 days had 542 confirmed kills.

The Finnish infantry battalion were one of the few to have integrated the SMG in the rifle squad. A Finnish platoon contained two SMG squads and two LMG squads.
Finnish infantry battalion 1939:
24xSMG
24xLMG
12xHMG

The Finnish air force lacked a lot of equipment, and had very few fighters. In one sense, this was a blessing in disguise as the air force, lacking in planes could be extremely selective in who it accepted into service. Only the very best of the very best among the conscripts were chosen to become fighter pilots and the training was extremely hard. Finnish pilots were required to pass extremely hard shooting tests. To add to this core of well-trained pilots, the Finnish air force was the very first adapter of the rotten-schwarm/fighting pair-finger four tactic - in 1932. The Germans developed the same tactics when fighting in Spain 1938, and the British switched after learning them the hard way over France 1940 and used them to good effect during the Battle of Britain.
Generally, Finland wasa decently egalitarian society. Many of the officers and NCOs were conscripts themselves and led by example and worked to earn the respect of the men rather than use strict discipline. Being used to long distances to central authority, these men were not beyond taking initiative without orders when the situation required it, which further increased the flexibility of the

Finnish forces.

The Finnish troops were drawn from men used to long and hard winters and moving on skis during several months of the year. The Finnish army held regular winter exercises and skis were among the standard equipment of the army - in winter condition a unit on skis that have trained on how to move together can move very quickly in columns, where one man makes a track for the rest for a while, then stops, rests and lets the next man take over the hard task and then joins the last part of the column.
The Finnish army had inherited a lot of arms from the Imperial Russian army, as had the Red Army, and both sides used the same caliber on small arms, except for pistols, which meant that Finnish soldiers, always lacking ammunition, could loot the enemy dead an dload their rounds directly into their own weapons.

Political factors

While Finland has suffered a bloody civil war only 20 years earlier, the country had healed the most glaring wounds, and the threat of a foreign invasion did weld communists, socialists and whites together. Most Finnish communists who had fled to the Soviet Union had been killed in Stalin's purges, and one could not find that much support for Stalin even from the Finnish communists in Finland even before the war. During the inter-war years Finland had become a stable democracy - right wing movements such as the Lappo movement had disgraced themselves and lost all support and social reforms such as an 8 hour workday, vacation and social insurance had been enacted.

Generally, the Finnish people proved very willing to sacrifice for their nation and their democracy, and left and right united against the Soviets, something which the Soviets had not expected.
Stalin pulled out what few Finnish communists were left, several of them alcoholics, some of them from Gulag camps and created the Terijoki government (from the village where they were seated, one of the few slices of Finnish terrain the Soviets captured) under Otto Ville Kuusinen. This government proclaimed the "Democratic Republic of Finland" and signed to all Soviet demands. Leaflets were printed and distributed over Finland, often dropped by air. The promises were often completely out of touch with Finnish politics - one thing that was promised was an 8 hour workday! The Soviets expected a quick victory and to be welcomed by the Finnish communists. They were sorely dissapointed.

The first month or so of the war, the world cared little about Finland and its woes, but when it became clear that Finland was not only holding, but actually defeating Soviet invasion forces, a kind of mass hysteria of sympathy swept over the world to provide aid for Finland. While Germany, in order to keep relations with their non-aggression partner the Soviet Union, refused transit of arms and volunteers, there were still a lot of Hungarian and Italian arms that made their way to Finland. Britain and France, who both really needed to focus on re-arming themselves sent massive aid to Finland. The US sold or gave away much of its surplus arms, although most of the US weapons arrived after the war had ended.

However, nowhere did the mass hysteria reach the levels they did in Sweden. Sweden more or less depleted her stores of arms and ammunitions to send to the Finns. For example 147 000 mortar shells and 12,2 million rifle cartridges were sent to Finland.


The Soviet Union

Military factors

While the Soviets had huge amounts of equipment, they were in the midst of a modernisation program. The vast majority of the equipment of the Red Army was still arms inherited from Imperial Russia. The artillery was ww1 vintage, and so were the rifles. Only LMGs, airplanes and tanks were decently modern. However, the main tank of the Winter War was not the T-34 (which had yet to be produced) not the KV-1 (which went through field trials in a few examples towards the end of the war) but rather the much smaller and weaker T-26.

The Soviets had sold off massive amounts of old and close to useless equipment at high prices to the Spanish Republic, but still retained large stockpiles of ww1 vintage equipment. The Red Army of 1942 and 1943 was an entirely different beast to the one 1939.
Communication in the Red Army was bad and in many cases catastrophic. There were very few radios - tanks and planes often lacked them, as did lower infantry units. Phone and telegraph lines were often cut, either by artillery fire or enemy patrols. Command and control suffered heavily and there are several reports of Soviet infantry being shelled by their own artillery or Soviet airplanes attacking their own forces.

Soviet forward observers for the artillery were not as well-trained as their western counterparts and had problems getting close enough to spot the target in the heavy forests of Finland. Finnish sharpshooters loved to take out forward observers as well. The Finnish tactic of keeping most of the men in underground wooden bunkers (korsu) during a bombardment combined with the ww1 vintage artillery, lack of communication equipment, a stiff and inflexible command structure and many other factors rendered the massive Soviet artillery much less effective than it should have been.

The Soviet mechanised formations were bound to the road, both for operation and supply. Considering that most roads of eastern Finland at the time were few and far apart, not even speaking of being single-file dirt roads, the Finns knew exactly where the Soviets would be - on the road. Raiding, patrol warfare and eventually motti warfare (cutting the long columns up in pieces and dealing with one piece at a time) was very effective against the Soviets.
Soviet logistics were a shamble and it quickly got hard to supply units with everything they needed - and ammunition had higher priority than warm clothes and winter equipment.

However, the worst part of the Red Army at the time was that it had forzen completely as a result of Stalin's purges. While the purges themselves mostly affected Generals and other in the higher command, the message sent and understood by the entire army was to sit still in the boat, do not rock it. The Red Army become tactically completely inflexible and utterly devoid of initiative, as no-one dared to anything wihtout order. Combined with the bad staff work and lousy communications, this was a recipy for disaster. This recipy was further spiced up by the attempt to blame the failures of the Soviet system in Spain on a lack of dicispline and elan rather than a lack of tactical skill. Dicispline, preferably draconian such, and zeal were to be the key to success. In practice, however, it was the key to absolute disaster when human wave attacks were thrown against impossible odds.
There are some authors who describes the Red Army at this time as more of an armed mob than a proper army.

The Soviets used mostly troops from the Ukraine and southern Russia during the early war, and had not equipped them with skis nor winter clother or winter equipment. When they did realise the need for ski troops, they quickly cobbled together a brigade partially consisting of interwar ski sports champions. These men often lacked military training and were cut to pieces by the Finns.

Soviet infantry battalion 1939 (practical organisation, as the new 1939 organisation had not been implented):
36xLMG
18xHMG
2xMedium mortars.
Note that the formation completely lacks SMGs, a very valuable weapon in the Finnish forests. While it has more mortars (the Finns had 4 mortars at regimental level, so 1,33 per battalion) and LMGs and HMGs than the Finnish battalion, it is not that much stronger, especially since it lacks SMGs.

Political factors

As opposed to what many people seem to think, Stalin was actually very careful and a suspicious opportunist. He secured German approval of his campaign aginst the Baltic states and Finland before he moved on them and he seem to have been intent on regaining as much of what Russia lost 1918 as possible, probably as a buffer against the western aggression he suspected would come.
Scrounging up the Terijoki government and some troops for them was hard. The troops were not used in the war, probably both because their frontline combat value was low (they numbered about a reinforced brigade) and that the Terijoki government would need them to establish control over Finland.

It is obvious that the Soviets thought that a victory over Finland would be quick and easy and that the Finnish communists would welcome them as liberators. Perhaps they fell for their own propaganda, perhaps no-one dared question it for fear of being labeled a counter-revolutionary defeatist and set to the gulags. Soviet forces attacking the north of Finland were found with maps clearly marking the Swedish border and orders to not cross it.

Since the Soviets expected the campaign to last a few weeks at most, winter equipment for the troops was not a bit priority. When this turned out to not be the case, and much larger forces was needed, the lack of reliable logistics saw the Soviet troops suffer. A man can stand a lot of cold as long as he can sleep warm and have warm and nutritious food to eat. Neither was possible when caught in a motti.

The Soviets were sensetive to the world's reaction to the war, and part of their decision to make peace in March 1940 was due the increasing support the Finns were receiving - the US was sending supplies, France and Britain were promising forces (but Sweden refused to allow them transit, knowing that they would want to occupy the iron mines in Sweden to deny their production to the Germans en route) and planning for air strikes from Syria against the Baku oil fields.
Stalin's plan had been to snatch Finland from under the world's nose when the Germans and western allies were at each others throats. And this was not happening. The war was dragging out, and while the Finnish army was at its last in March, the Soviets did not know it.

Thus Stalin conveniently forgot about Kuusinen and his Terijoki government, which he only three months previously called "the only legal government of Finland" and made peace.

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Re: Recenzie Red Winter

Post: # 53474Post Imago
31 May 2014, 13:44

Uite ce au cerut sovieticii inainte de razboi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sovie ... erline.png.
Uite ce au obtinut sovieticii dupa razboi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Finni ... n_1940.png. Cam de 4 ori mai mult decat voiau initial. Teritoriu ca teritoriu, oricum erau paduri, mlastini, tundra. Insa finlandezii au pierdut si orasul Viipuri (Vyborg astazi), punct strategic ce controla accesul spre Sankt-Petersburg din Golful Finlandez. Plus la nord au pierdut si niste zacaminte de nichel. E straniu ca finlandezii au luptat in genere pentru cererile initiale ale rusilor.

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